So this has been building for a while and of course, has come to a head with Indy 4. So I've decided to be the devil's advocate and actually like George Lucas. Because I don't think everyone is giving him a fair shake. I don't have time to cover all issues in detail but I want to address three major conversations I've had recently and Joe's blog entry.
Nostalgia
The main reason everyone is miffed with the current incarnations of Star Wars and Indy is because their memories are colored by nostalgia. It's like when your grandparents tell you how great it was "way back when" and how it was safer and nicer and uphill both ways. It wasn't better then, it's just your memory is faulty and you had less experience and even reference.I defy the idea that you could watch these new, having never experienced them and enjoy them the same way. It's impossible to prove. You can't divorce yourself from the faulty judgment of nostalgia.
Case in point, I never saw Goonies growing up. I watched it for the first time last year. I found it kind of goofy and ridiculous. It's fun but I have no reason to watch it again. It holds no nostalgic value for me and no place in the canon of
movies that make up my childhood. If I showed you any Indiana Jones or Star Wars now, I guarantee you'd find them quaint and low tech, very cheesy and filled with outrageous stunts. You might enjoy them but I doubt you'd enjoy them as faultless masterpieces.Another major problem with these new movies is that they aren't a reaction against the movies of the time. The original Star Wars was released on the heels of The Godfather, The French Connection, and other gritty reality movies full of anti-heroes and messy lines between good and evil. These new films aren't updated enough I feel. They try to keep with the old and not react to the new.
Here's the current state of movies that makes Lucas's latest incarnations dated:
1. This is a post Die Hard, Matrix, Lord of the Rings, Bourne Ultimatum era of action movies.
2. The delightfully fanciful movie era of the 80's is over. It has been replaced again with grittier, more realistic filming and teen romantic comedies.
3. The fanciful era was ushered in by Lucas. He's responsible for people being ready for movies like Neverending Story, ET, Legend, and Willow. Also, TV shows like Small Wonder and Alf. But the 90's were a reaction against Lucas.
4. The original movies were new and fresh. These new movies are released in a Post-Lucas era. We've already seen him, evolved away from him, and now he returns with throwbacks. Every Indy movie as we watched it was a mix of the old and the new. Now we just have the old. The only new part is the same effects are being done with CGI.
Now I'm not saying that we can't watch any old movie and not enjoy it. Obviously not. But Indy and Star Wars are part of our nostalgic youth. They aren't judged the same. And it's not just nostalgia we're fighting but the sum of experiential movie data in our brains.
CGIThis argument to me is ridiculous. The reason for effects is to create spectacle on screen. To keep someone in the reality of it, the effects artist uses the best he has at the time. CGI is the best today and that's what people use. To rebel against it is to argue for your outdated technology. No one raises a shout for washboards when we have washing machines.
We're kidding ourselves if we think that the old stuff looked better. The melting face in Raiders? It's ridiculous, campy. No one would argue for its authenticity. But we like it because it was the best back then. The Rancor in Jedi? Stupid. It's pathetic looking. Even as a kid I was taken out of the movie by the obvious fakeness of it.
If we're arguing against CGI, what are we arguing for? Do we want claymation back? Like Jason
and the Argonauts? Should we put keep using puppets? Godzilla suits? Inadequate models and ships on strings? You're saying that you'd rather all chase scenes today looked more like the speeder bike scenes in Jedi? With sloppy effects on a green screen? The seamlessness of CGI is yet to come. But we've seen glimpses of it.I'm not saying that some of the effects aren't over the top and used to excess. The prairie dog in Indy 4 was not my favorite. But I would have been pissed off it was a puppet! Better it was never there, sure, but better than going backwards.
From George Lucas's standpoint, he was embarrassed at some of the scenes in the original Star Wars trilogy. He envisioned a universe full of diverse creatures that he wanted to portray. Instead of the Star Trek lameness of "Aliens Just Have Different Head Bumps" route he tried to portray it in makeup and puppetry. And it wasn't fully realized. He could not create the vision he wanted.

So he spent the next 25 years developing the technology to realize his vision. These were for his new series of stories. Unfortunately, he felt it necessary to patch up his old movies. I don't enjoy ALL of the patches. I like some. But I understand his want to fix the things he was embarrassed of. The things he just didn't have the technology for originally. Are they perfect yet? No. Was his technology in the 70's and 80's perfect either? No.
The biggest mistake of the new movies is that he let himself direct. Lucas is not a director. He's a story teller and visual artist. The acting and dialogue was just as bad in the original three Star Wars and Indy movies. It just had more likable bad actors. Mark Hamill was at least charismatic. Hayden Christiansen is just whiny.
Aliens Instead of Religion
It's been done! Another religious object? It would have been boring! The movie would have been panned so much more if it went the Christian/Judaism route again. It would have been seen as a paltry shadow of the originals and everyone would have yawned with, "Seen that. Done better."
Name one religious object that would have been good. But it would have to raise the stakes. It would have to be bigger than the Holy Grail. I challenge anyone to name one piece of religious iconography that would have topped the Ark or Grail and be rooted enough in Western culture that we could immediately identify with it. The cross? A piece of Jesus's clothing? It would be the same as the Grail not better. The staff of Moses? The Golden Calf? Maybe they could have done the Garden of Eden, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But what then? That would have debunked Christian mythology not supported it like the other two movies. It would be the Da Vinci Code or National Treasure not Indiana Jones.

There were only three major archaeological things popular in Western mythology that might have been used. El Dorado, Atlantis, and the Fountain of Youth. They had actually played around with an Atlantis movie until about 8 years ago. The Fountain of Youth was just done. So El Dorado then. But with the right MacGuffin.
I thought that the theme of the movie was much more Indy than The Mummy or National Treasure or Da Vinci Code or all those other rip offs.
Over the Top
Yes, the waterfalls, the refrigerator, and the vine swinging was ridiculous. But so was the huge stone marble and the hand insignia melting in Raiders, the plane scene in Doom, not to mention the poison and antidote debacle, and the seagulls in Holy Grail. The only reason we're more sensitive now is again, the fact that we're not nine years old.
Because we can't believe now that someone can survive three waterfalls but we can believe in a long buried snake pit full of hundreds of snakes with nothing to feed on. Oh, and Aliens are a more of a stretch than let's say, Immortal Grail Juice.
No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no dammit no.
ReplyDeleteA more articulate rejoinder forthcoming. I just had to get it out: how bad this post made me froth at the mouth. I think you've been spending too much time in opium dens in Chinatown.
I need to sit down for this one...watch for it Monday.
I disagree with "grifter" and thank you for giving me something to believe in again. I was miffed after the movie, and though I still hate it, it doesn't ruin the others for me anymore. (Good point about the religious artifacts.)
ReplyDeleteoh man i want in on this action
ReplyDeleteBut are you for me or against me, Allen?
ReplyDeleteJess, thank you. I don't think people shouldn't be upset about the movie but I don't find it to be as ridiculous or far off as everyone is claiming. And I'm glad you liked my point about the religious artifacts. I find my argument on the religious artifacts to be solid. Bulletproof, even.
Chew on that, Grift.
Hahahahaha!!! James, I wanted to back you up as soon I began reading, but then you kept saying things that made my neck start itching like mad. So I scratched it for a while and can't really respond to well because it is late, but I will say the following things:
ReplyDelete1. I did grow up on Goonies. It is true. But it is a kick-ass movie. The technology has changed, sure, but Chunk's monologues? Corey Feldman's dirty Spanish? The hot older brother? I am confident I could still be sold on it.
2. Teen romantic comedies have always been around. But Molly Ringwald starred in them instead of Jessica Alba. Before Molly it was Annette from the Mouseketeers.
3. 90s shmyndies. We're in a Harry Potter Narnia Lord of the Rings era. The technology is an issue though. You watched Jurassic Park recently? The velociraptor scenes are WAAAAAAAY too long and drawn out because the technology was so new at the time when I was in fourth grade I was mesmerized...I couldn't get enough. Now it's like, why are we watching them bite at each other for four minutes when those little kids are about ready to get chewed up? One day Jurassic Park will be embarrassing, but it will also be a classic. I accept that. But Jar Jar Binks? Really? This is what we are going to use technology to accomplish?
4. I wish they would have kept the Atlantis plot. Up until a month ago, I assumed they had.
5. I'm not arguing CGI necessarily, although I think they have taken the magic out of special effects to a large degree. But I do think that Lucas abuses it. And I don't like the added scenes in the films he's released for a second time. I think CGI could have been used appropriately in Indy IV and Joe is right, it probably could have been used in ways other than impossible ants and Russian-hating monkeys.
6. It's true that when they filmed the first Star Wars movies, Fischer, Ford, and Hamill thought people would laugh them out of the theater for their horrible lines and they used to fight Lucas saying they didn't want to say them (I think Ford ad-libbed to some extent in some scenes)....yeah, even to them it was a bit embarrassing. But still. The chemistry between those actors and Chewie and all the rest were classic and golden and pure and true. I had high hopes for Ewan McGregor but he didn't shine at all. None of them did. Look at the all-star cast and were any of them used to full capacity? My same argument from Goonies. The director used the people in the film in the best, cleverest ways. Shia in Indy IV wasn't as bad as I was expecting, but it's true...he wasn't Short Round. And seeing Marcus Brody as a statue (with an incredibly weak neck) I didn't think was a sufficient or realistic honor to that character and I did feel Lucas was stretching there, trying to pull people like me in....anyway. But I do feel like Ford got some of his Indy-jive back which is part of why I want to be so defensive of that film. I just want it to have merit so badly.
So maybe that's my argument? The hearts of the movies are what pull me in. Even in romantic comedies....I feel like John Cusack in Say Anything is so much more charming and interesting and real than Freddie Prince Jr in ANYTHING he's ever done. I don't what that says about then and now and nostalgia...are we really turning into old fogies? Am I really saying I grew up in the good ole' days? Hold on James, I have to think about this. I'm having a real sub-mid-life crisis here. Sorry to write all over your comment page, as well. I might have more to say, later.
But I do want to back you up on defending Lucas...in some way.
Shoot. Now I have to fork out the cash to see the film in order to have a valid opinion. But I agree with Gillz, I will forever be a Goonie girl.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the new Indy? What am I asking, you probably have. I LOVED that it stayed true to the nostalgia. George Lucas is a stickler for history...has anyone ever noticed that?
ReplyDeleteI had some friends who were irked over the 'alien' story line. I was like um...have you never read a comic book from the 1950's? That is when that sci-fi crap was getting HUGE!
Anyway, I agree w/ your post, btw. I just wanted to show you some props. Oh and Goonies = kick ass. So there.
Linked here from Allen's blog. We know a lot of the same people, but I don't think we've ever been properly introduced. Hi. I'm Dylan, and I must disagree with you.
ReplyDeleteCrystal Skull is a heavily flawed movie, as much as it pains me to say so. It's a showcase of Lucas and Spielberg's biggest flaws (Lucas' lack of restraint - as evidenced in the Prequels and Special Editions - and Spielberg's predilection for schmaltz - see Always or The Terminal). I posted a more lengthy autopsy here.
I agree with your point re: this being a post Bourne action movie, but as whimsical/pulpy as the first three Indy movies are/were, there's still some semblance of reality to hang onto. When Indy's getting pummeled by that huge Nazi in Raiders? That's some gritty, real business, there. There's a feeling of danger, of actual peril (I mean, peril is a necessary component when you're making matinée serial pulp, even if it's updated matinée serial pulp).
When he gets repeatedly pummeled by that huge Russian in Crystal Skull while swarms of CGI ants eat people? I didn't buy it for a second and was, in very fact, bored to tears by it. Is my lack of engagement due to nostalgia or the fact that I'm older and fatter and more jaded than I was in 198-whatever? Maybe.
Or maybe it was just sort of stupid.
Thanks for letting me rant. Peace.
Oh, and you are high. The Goonies is pure awesome.
Ah, see! Everyone is willing to go toe to toe about Goonies not because of any artistic argument but because it is just firmly ensconced in their nostalgic psyche. Of course I was being a little glib about it, to dig out some reactions. I like Goonies just not as much as everyone else.
ReplyDeleteGillz,
1.Goonies. See above.
2.I know teen comedies have been around. I guess I should say the audience for these teen comedies are different. They are now marketed towards young teens, Disney lovers. Hughes's masterpieces are geared towards teens and adults. The new one are dumbed way down. That's why I hate them.
3. I think we are in a Lord of the Rings/Narnia/Harry Potter Era. But I think they wouldn't even be possible without Lucas. He even set the stage for fantasy movies. Come on, Willow? It's so thinly veiled as The Hobbit.
My argument is that those three movies have taken the current technology and movie making techniques and used them whereas Lucas and Spielberg aren't cutting edge anymore. They fail because they aren't any different from the old ones (Indy, Star Wars). The lack of evolving hurt them more than helped them. I think Jurassic Park will look outdated someday but it at least answered to the films of the time. The CGI looks lame already. The Golem in LOTR looks a little hacky by now.
4. Atlantis would have been better. But I think everyone forgets this movie was about El Dorado not just aliens.
5. Lucas's abuse is agreed. If we argue against special effects though, we argue for limiting the scope of vision in a movie. Young kids are now completely immersed in movies full of CGI and will one day say the same things about LOTR and Harry Potter that we say about Star Wars and Indy.
6. I believe if Lucas was not the director those casting choices might not have been made. Lucas is a bit like Lorne Michaels. He thinks that the best talent will be someone no one knows. Obviously, by Joe's response to Neil Flynn (the janitor from Scrubs) we must partly believe it. But obviously they could have done better than Jake Lloyd, Hayden Christiansen, and Jar Jar Suck.
I think Natalie Portman might have been better with better lines and Ewan McGregor was pulling for all he was worth but it was really hard to stand out beneath those awful words.
Again, I don't think Lucas failed because they weren't like the old Star Wars or Indy. I think he failed because they were too much like them. We just saw them with adult eyes.
James:
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to say this because it sounds trite, but I really had drafted a voluminous response to your argument when I got called away. When I got back, my session had timed out and my witty rejoinders were lost to the ether.
Let me just summarize. I agree with your nostalgia idea, and I allowed for that in my post, but at the same time, nostalgia doesn't entirely trump critical reasoning. I liked this movie least because of involved elements and what Dylan referred to (above) as the lack of gritty, darker elements that were found in the originals (the first two especially).
As for the "best technology we've got" argument, it might be a disservice to equate "best" with "most believable or acceptable." As crude as some of the dummies and melting wax faces may seem, for me they hold a facet of reality that CGI misses entirely, simply because those are actual physical artifacts in the field of three dimensions. I see CGI monkeys and I instantly think "who Framed Roger Rabbit"...the opposing elements are so starkly contrasted that any bind with reality is severed. And a side note: if you continue to lampoon the work of Ray Harryhausen, I will come to your apartment and beat you with a shovel.
Another side note that irks me is that Frank Darabont had submitted a script that both Spielberg and Ford raved about, and enter Lucas and his "let's give the kids some monkey monkey" attitude. No, dude. Um...trust Spielberg. Seriously.
I respect your opinion Jimmy, and I don't have the stamina to really try to rebuke today, although I still think you need to lay off the bong water.
Ok, so this is an old bandwagon, but I'm jumping on it anyway.
ReplyDeleteJames, you are spot on right.
Here are some other points to consider about Indy 4 (I liked it, by the way... it isn't the best, but holds its own at least with "Temple of Doom"):
First, Lucas had reasoning for the jump from religious themes to alien themes. The first three movies took place in the 1930's, and were based on Saturday morning adventure serials of the time, both thematically and subject matter. Because the fourth movie takes place 20 years later, Lucas adjusted this as well. Indy 4 is patterned after the sci-fi serials and "B" movies of the 1950's. In essence, he is not straying from the original elements; he is staying true to them.
Point two: there is an expansive world of Indiana Jones that goes far beyond the four movies. There are dozens of books (some are good, some really stink) and then some pretty great computer games over the years. The computer games have dealt with religious themes (See "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis," which also is a really great take on the Atlantian mythology) and also alien stories (Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine). The latter took place in between Indy 3 and Indy 4, and Indy is up against the communists. It is a perfect transition between the movies and, along with the Fate of Atlantis, bring a more whole view of the Indy-verse (yes, I just said "Indy-verse”). With those episodes in the story considered, Indy 4 actually fits in perfectly, where a more religiously based film would have felt disjointed. The problem is that most of you aren't aware of the completeness of what Lucas has created.
(There is another game called "Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb," but it came out during my mission and I've yet to get my hands on a copy. But I assume it takes place in Asia).
I know it can be argued that the movies should be able to stand alone, but why not consider everything?
Now I am not a fan of CGI, but for different reasons. I like to watch movies and try to figure out how they accomplished different special effects, but with CGI it is always the same answer. It removes that particular element of fun for me, but as a medium it makes a lot more sense to use it.
The Nostalgia point is spot on, James, spot on!! Disney is arguably the richest entertainment company in the world, and the majority of their revenue comes from the theme parks. Millions of adults come every year to those parks, and spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars each to ride what essentially are rides for little kids. Why? Because Disney sells memories. Because we buy memories. Goonies (as the example used) is a movie I love, but for the same reason I love the Peter Pan ride… It isn’t necessarily the most thrilling adventure, but when I was a kid, it was my time down here!
This may make your ears bleed, but our children are going to grow up watching the Star Wars prequels, Indiana Jones 4, and other movies that we may feel miss the mark. But to them, these movies will be every bit as awesome and will be considered just as classic as the originals are to us as a generation. And when we argue otherwise we are going to come across as old folks who are clearly out of touch (just like my grandpa does when he tries to convince me that the Beatles were send to America by Satan and Hitler). Mark my words, Nostalgia will win them over, just like it has with you.
Thank you again, James, for making valid (albeit unpopular) points. Just like you used to in school. Every point you made back then was always spot on… (of course not really, but I just wanted to sneak nostalgia in there one last time…)